Another Review of the K-3 ;-)


Smeggypants

Link Posted 19/02/2014 - 01:24
Daniel Bridge wrote:
Smeggypants wrote:
Really if people are going to get upset with feedback on what they publish then they shouldn't publish it.

And once again, just in case anyone missed it, I'm not upset, just somewhat bemused. Perhaps you weren't directing that at me, but it seemed to me that you were.

Percentages, or star ratings, or thumbs up, or whatever scoring system, is used for just about every review on the planet, whether it's cameras, music, films, inkjet paper, videos of cats playing the piano, or chocolate biscuits. If the mark is higher, the subject of the review is considered better than things with a lower score, by whoever is doing the review. They may have different tastes to you, they may never have had a McDingles Shortcake Choccobiccy, or maybe their review was written before such a delight was ever dreamed of, and you may disagree with their verdict, or the basis upon which it was derived, or in any other of a multitude of ways, to your heart's content. If you don't like the system, you don't need to pay it any attention. If you come up with a better system, feel free to let the world's media know.

Dan

Whether I pay it attention or not to anything is up to me. It's not up to anyone else to decide what I do or do not pay attention to is it?


Quote:
Percentages, or star ratings, or thumbs up, or whatever scoring system, is used for just about every review on the planet, whether it's cameras, music, films, inkjet paper, videos of cats playing the piano, or chocolate biscuits.

So? Frequency of use or widespread use doesn't logically make something good or credible.

Appeal to Popularity - In fact one of the examples of this logical fallacy on the Wikipedia article is indeed "Everyone's doing it"

Argumentum ad populum wins no points ( or 0% - hehe ) in a debate.


[quote]If you come up with a better system, feel free to let the world's media know./quote]

Of course there's a better system. That's such an easy issue to address. Don't have the meaningless, arbitrary and rather absurd percentage/points scoring nonsense at all. Why not just do a review and write up a conclusion along with two lists showing what the reviewer thought was the pros and cons of the product in question.

You say you aren't upset, but I would beg to differ looking at your repeated responses in this thread. And as for being bemused? What for? Some people journey through life accepting and others journey through life challenging. You're obviously in the former camp and I'm in the latter. That's fine, everyone's different. Be a boring old world if we were all the same.
[i]Bodies: 1x K-5IIs, 2x K-5, Sony TX-5, Nokia 808
Lenses: Pentax DA 10-17mm ED(IF) Fish Eye, Pentax DA 14mm f/2.8, Sigma 17-70mm f/2.8, Pentax-A 28mm f/2.8, Sigma 30mm F1.4 EX DC, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.2, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.4, Pentax-FA 50mm f/1.4, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.7, Pentax DA* 50-135mm f/2.8, Sigma 135-400mm APO DG, and more ..
Flash: AF-540FGZ, Vivitar 283

CMW

Link Posted 19/02/2014 - 06:23
Mountain and molehill spring to mind. This 'debate' is manufactured out of next to nothing and (as usual) Smeggy's views are held with tremendous tenacity. But on this occasion it's hard to see that they've earned his energy.

If the publisher follows a system that requires percentage scores, the reviewer has to have a stab at it.
Regards, Christopher

ChristopherWheelerPhotography

NeilP

Link Posted 19/02/2014 - 07:44
Quote:
Smeggypants wrote:
Daniel Bridge wrote:
[quote:3496ace15f="Smeggypants"]Really if people are going to get upset with feedback on what they publish then they shouldn't publish it.

And once again, just in case anyone missed it, I'm not upset, just somewhat bemused. Perhaps you weren't directing that at me, but it seemed to me that you were.

Percentages, or star ratings, or thumbs up, or whatever scoring system, is used for just about every review on the planet, whether it's cameras, music, films, inkjet paper, videos of cats playing the piano, or chocolate biscuits. If the mark is higher, the subject of the review is considered better than things with a lower score, by whoever is doing the review. They may have different tastes to you, they may never have had a McDingles Shortcake Choccobiccy, or maybe their review was written before such a delight was ever dreamed of, and you may disagree with their verdict, or the basis upon which it was derived, or in any other of a multitude of ways, to your heart's content. If you don't like the system, you don't need to pay it any attention. If you come up with a better system, feel free to let the world's media know.

Dan

Whether I pay it attention or not to anything is up to me. It's not up to anyone else to decide what I do or do not pay attention to is it?


Quote:
Percentages, or star ratings, or thumbs up, or whatever scoring system, is used for just about every review on the planet, whether it's cameras, music, films, inkjet paper, videos of cats playing the piano, or chocolate biscuits.

So? Frequency of use or widespread use doesn't logically make something good or credible.

Appeal to Popularity - In fact one of the examples of this logical fallacy on the Wikipedia article is indeed "Everyone's doing it"

Argumentum ad populum wins no points ( or 0% - hehe ) in a debate.


Quote:
If you come up with a better system, feel free to let the world's media know./quote]

Of course there's a better system. That's such an easy issue to address. Don't have the meaningless, arbitrary and rather absurd percentage/points scoring nonsense at all. Why not just do a review and write up a conclusion along with two lists showing what the reviewer thought was the pros and cons of the product in question.

You say you aren't upset, but I would beg to differ looking at your repeated responses in this thread. And as for being bemused? What for? Some people journey through life accepting and others journey through life challenging. You're obviously in the former camp and I'm in the latter. That's fine, everyone's different. Be a boring old world if we were all the same.


Why is it everytime anyone has anything positive to say about the K-3 you go to the nth degree to discredit it? It seems every positive K-3 thread on this forum has a statement from you showing how its wrong. It got old about a month ago...

McGregNi

Link Posted 19/02/2014 - 10:35
Lets remember the original point which was always about the absurdity of the percentage scoring method, and how one member felt that affected negatively the credibility of the review. It was not about the reviewer, the K3 or any specific comments or responses that Daniel expressed. I agree about the absurdity element - when you can't trust a system it makes you work harder to try and understand the truth, and as a paying customer of the magazines I expect them to do more of that for me.

There has been plenty of support here for Daniel and the review generally, and I agree, great to have an experienced Pentax person given the opportunity and exposure, and its good to believe that the writer will have a deeper knowledge of the product than we normally see.

But, despite this, it doesn't change the fact that the points system undermines all this for me - and clearly some others too. The more Daniel explains the 'methodology' the more discredited it becomes ...

'The Canon 70D is very nice, but I don't think it's as capable as the K-3, and, for example, build quality is nowhere near as nice. However it's cheaper. It scored 94% in a previous issue of OP (Andy Luck did that one, he does quite a few for them). I looked at this review, compared the respective marks, thought how I would mark it, thought about how that would compare to the K-3, and came up with a result'. So, you know about another persons score in another magazine for a similar camera you also know - you take this score, factor in your own feeling on the comparisons, and create a new score that supposedly somehow relates to the first one...

Again, it's not about Daniel - he no doubt has little choice, and that's 'a way' - but it only fuels my disgruntlement about the whole system. Maybe it is time the magazines found a proper method of scoring cameras - they might even get more people buying them rather than flicking through at the newstand quickly picking out large bold type percentage scores.
My Guides to the Pentax Digital Camera Flash Lighting System : Download here from the PentaxForums Homepage Article .... link
Pentax K7 with BG-4 Grip / Samyang 14mm f2.8 ED AS IF UMC / DA18-55mm f3.5-5.6 AL WR / SMC A28mm f2.8 / D FA 28-105mm / SMC F35-70 f3.5-4.5 / SMC A50mm f1.7 / Tamron AF70-300mm f4-5.6 Di LD macro / SMC M75-150mm f4.0 / Tamron Adaptall (CT-135) 135mm f2.8 / Asahi Takumar-A 2X tele-converter / Pentax AF-540FGZ (I & II) Flashes / Cactus RF60/X Flashes & V6/V6II Transceiver

McBrian

Link Posted 19/02/2014 - 12:56
I think some folk just like to hear their own voice, much ado about nothing.

The text is mightier than the numbers
Cheers
Brian.
LBA is good for you, a Lens a day helps you work, rest and play.

Russ

Link Posted 19/02/2014 - 14:16
I think a lot of people just love to have some numbers to quantify the text they have just read. A number is worth a thousand words, even if it is plucked from thin air.

Jonathan-Mac

Link Posted 19/02/2014 - 14:23
I learned long ago to ignore the numbers at the end of camera reviews. They mean nothing to me.

For example, a camera might be marked down for poor manual control in video. I don't give a hoot about video, so this is totally irrelevant.

Conversely, some review sites don't care at much all about build quality, which for me is important, so I wouldn't want to buy a highly reviewed camera only to find it had mediocre build quality.

Read the text, pay attention to the parts that matter to you, and make your choice. Always ignore the final numerical score, if there is one.
Pentax hybrid user - Digital K3 & K200D, film 645 and 35mm SLR and Pentax (&other) lenses adapted to Fuji X digital
Fan of DA limited and old manual lenses

johnriley

Link Posted 19/02/2014 - 15:07
Posts repeating the same thing have now been removed, we are not going for an endless argument here over something so minor. It puts a lot of people off posting and it's not necessary.

McGregNi

Link Posted 19/02/2014 - 17:40
Jonathan-Mac wrote:
I learned long ago to ignore the numbers at the end of camera reviews. They mean nothing to me.....

Read the text, pay attention to the parts that matter to you, and make your choice. Always ignore the final numerical score, if there is one.

Good advice I think Defeats the purpose of it all really, which makes me wonder why the publishers feel it so necessary to impose the system?
My Guides to the Pentax Digital Camera Flash Lighting System : Download here from the PentaxForums Homepage Article .... link
Pentax K7 with BG-4 Grip / Samyang 14mm f2.8 ED AS IF UMC / DA18-55mm f3.5-5.6 AL WR / SMC A28mm f2.8 / D FA 28-105mm / SMC F35-70 f3.5-4.5 / SMC A50mm f1.7 / Tamron AF70-300mm f4-5.6 Di LD macro / SMC M75-150mm f4.0 / Tamron Adaptall (CT-135) 135mm f2.8 / Asahi Takumar-A 2X tele-converter / Pentax AF-540FGZ (I & II) Flashes / Cactus RF60/X Flashes & V6/V6II Transceiver

mille19

Link Posted 19/02/2014 - 18:06
And another review

SLR Lounge K3 review

haven't seen a bad one yet!

Daniel Bridge

Link Posted 19/02/2014 - 19:18
Smeggypants wrote:
Daniel Bridge wrote:
If you don't like the system, you don't need to pay it any attention.

Whether I pay it attention or not to anything is up to me. It's not up to anyone else to decide what I do or do not pay attention to is it?

And that's why I said "you don't need to pay it any attention", not "Don't pay it any attention." I was giving you the choice. I'm nice like that.

Smeggypants wrote:

Quote:
If you come up with a better system, feel free to let the world's media know.

Of course there's a better system. That's such an easy issue to address. Don't have the meaningless, arbitrary and rather absurd percentage/points scoring nonsense at all. Why not just do a review and write up a conclusion along with two lists showing what the reviewer thought was the pros and cons of the product in question.

Have you read the review? You know those things are there? Just with the addition of the percentage bits. So, just don't read those bits, if they offend you so highly. Obviously that's not a command, just a suggestion.

Smeggypants wrote:
You say you aren't upset, but I would beg to differ looking at your repeated responses in this thread.

By that logic, you're just as upset as I am, and as I presume you're not upset, then that proves neither am I.

I was just a little irked to see that it seemed to be suggested that I was getting upset by this whole thing. I'm simply not, I wouldn't be smirking as I write this if I was. I was just answering as best I could the questions and points raised by yourself and Nigel. And bemused, yes. Because I think there are many things to get 'upset' about, but I just don't see this as one of them. As you say, each to their own. And I'm glad you and I are different, I think being you would do my head in after a while.

Dan
K-3, a macro lens and a DA*300mm...

DrOrloff

Link Posted 19/02/2014 - 19:39
I've just wasted five minutes of my life reading this thread. Anyone got some nice photos to share?
You can see some of my photos here if you are so inclined

pgweber

Link Posted 19/02/2014 - 19:46
"Likes: Inproved autofocus"

"Dislikes: Autofocus could still be improved"


...well it's a pass from me then.
Peter

Pentax K5
Pentax DA 18-55 Mk1, 50-200 (Samsung), 16-45, 55-300 Mk1, 35 f/2.4
Pentax MZ6 + FA28-90, FA50 f/1.4, M 50 f/1.7
Tamron 80-210mm & 28mm

NeilP

Link Posted 19/02/2014 - 20:55
DrOrloff wrote:
I've just wasted five minutes of my life reading this thread. Anyone got some nice photos to share?

Not the nicest photo ever, but this is the first shot I took on my brand new k-3 this lunchtime in bright sun. Cropped jpeg from the camera



great tit by Neil Phillips, on Flickr

Initial impressions is its sharper with much better metering than my k-5, as that seemed to struggle with the black and white head and colourful bird in sunlight last week
UK Wildlife blog ----- UK Wildlife Facebook page ----- UK wildlife Twitter
Last Edited by NeilP on 19/02/2014 - 20:55

davidstorm

Link Posted 19/02/2014 - 21:23
DrOrloff wrote:
I've just wasted five minutes of my life reading this thread. Anyone got some nice photos to share?

I've actually found it all rather entertaining, although I do feel for Daniel having obviously worked to a set of rules for the review, only for this to be ripped apart on here!

Here's a K-3 photo, not sure if it is nice or not, I'm sure others can judge that:

K-3, Pentax-M 28mm F3.5




Regards
David
Flickr

Nicola's Apartments, Kassiopi, Corfu

Some cameras, some lenses, some bits 'n' bobs
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