Another case of Police Overstepping the mark
2,546 posts
Link
Posted 23/02/2010 - 12:28
But surely common sense has to play into this on BOTH sides.
And in all of these incidents, it appears that PCSOs act without common sense.
Refusing to give details after a car crash is not comparable as there has been an incident.
But, to continue with that analogy: would it be acceptable to have to give your details when you are getting into your car, just in case you are about to speed? .
If you were buckeling[sp?] your children in and a PCSO came along and demanded to know where you were going and asked for your details, just in case you didn't have a license, that would be seen as unreasonable. Surely that is a similar thing?
Getting there! Thanks to you guys
Pentax K10d, *istDL, Kit lens ( 18-55mm ), 50mm f1.7 lens, Tamron 70-300mm lens, Prinzflex 70-162 manual lens, Various old flashes.
And in all of these incidents, it appears that PCSOs act without common sense.
Refusing to give details after a car crash is not comparable as there has been an incident.
But, to continue with that analogy: would it be acceptable to have to give your details when you are getting into your car, just in case you are about to speed? .
If you were buckeling[sp?] your children in and a PCSO came along and demanded to know where you were going and asked for your details, just in case you didn't have a license, that would be seen as unreasonable. Surely that is a similar thing?
Getting there! Thanks to you guys
Pentax K10d, *istDL, Kit lens ( 18-55mm ), 50mm f1.7 lens, Tamron 70-300mm lens, Prinzflex 70-162 manual lens, Various old flashes.
Link
Posted 23/02/2010 - 12:52
I support the photographer for standing his ground, Even at the cost of 8 hours of his time. As it raises the awareness that these things are going on in our country. If we just just give the information just for a quiet life then it just perpetuates the myth that these PCSO`s have the right to harass photographers and to demand our personal details. By making this video of his experience he has done each and every one of us a favour and i bet the PCSO involved will have learned a valuable lesson too!(As will some of their colleagues.)
I frequently go out in towns and cities shooting Still and sometimes Video with my K7 and a tripod and so far i have had no negative experiences with PCSO`s or Police (In fact i have struck up many an interesting conversation with them) but i am always ready to respond should ever my rights be challenged. (Though using a tripod could possibly construed as causing an obstruction so i would have to be prepared to concede to that if ever the need arose.)
Regards - Pete
I frequently go out in towns and cities shooting Still and sometimes Video with my K7 and a tripod and so far i have had no negative experiences with PCSO`s or Police (In fact i have struck up many an interesting conversation with them) but i am always ready to respond should ever my rights be challenged. (Though using a tripod could possibly construed as causing an obstruction so i would have to be prepared to concede to that if ever the need arose.)
Regards - Pete
Link
Posted 23/02/2010 - 13:05
Quote:
By making this video of his experience he has done each and every one of us a favour and i bet the PCSO involved will have learned a valuable lesson too!(As will some of their colleagues.)
By making this video of his experience he has done each and every one of us a favour and i bet the PCSO involved will have learned a valuable lesson too!(As will some of their colleagues.)
I dont think so as the local police authority completely backed them in what they did.
what's more this one is just as worrying if not more,just look at the attitude of the PCSO (gum chewing...cocky)
police at their worst
regards
Roy
Pentax K3 gripped,and some lenses
https://www.flickr.com/photos/pentaxroy/
my pbase gallery
Link
Posted 23/02/2010 - 13:15
Greytop wrote:
. . .the bottom line is there is an apparent erosion of your rights taking place in the UK.
. . .the bottom line is there is an apparent erosion of your rights taking place in the UK.
I think that you have hit the nail on the head. In my opinion the reason why it appears that our rights are being eroded is that today we have access to infinitely more 'news' than was ever possible in the past. Things that previously would not have been considered newsworthy in even a local newspaper can now be viewed globally on the website of an (allegedly) quality daily newspaper at the click of a button. I can't imagine that The Guardian, 20 years ago, would have run a story about someone being arrested for refusing to give their name to the police when asked - in fact I doubt that the story even today made it into the print edition of the paper.
I have no doubt that since William Henry Fox Talbot's day, the police have regularly been asking photographers what they are doing taking photos in public places and on occasions asking for their name and address. In the past however, the majority of people weren't prepared to question those in authority, and so the matter would have been resolved simply and without any fuss just as it was for the person who took the video - 'Patefield was arrested for refusing to give his details, while his friend, who gave in, walked free.'
Bottom line - are these incidents on the increase or are being made increasingly aware of them?
Steve
Last Edited by promhandicam on 23/02/2010 - 13:27
Link
Posted 23/02/2010 - 13:27
Greytop wrote:
Put it another way would anyone feel comfortable with the idea of taking your kit into your nearest town centre and taking a few candid shots and some architecture?
EDIT: I know I wouldn't
Put it another way would anyone feel comfortable with the idea of taking your kit into your nearest town centre and taking a few candid shots and some architecture?
EDIT: I know I wouldn't
Well, that's a terrible shame and, with respect, an over reaction to these stories. Architecture and street shots comprise 60% of my photography. I've only been approached once (i was in a side street by a police station). A brief explanation of what I was doing was sufficient and we parted amicably. I'm sure encounters like this are the majority, if not newsworthy.
[link=https://500px.com/will_brealey/[/link]
Link
Posted 23/02/2010 - 13:30
promhandicam wrote:
I think that you have hit the nail on the head. In my opinion the reason why it appears that our rights are being eroded is that today we have access to infinitely more 'news' than was ever possible in the past. Things that previously would not have been considered newsworthy in even a local newspaper can now be viewed globally on the website of an (allegedly) quality daily newspaper at the click of a button. I can't imagine that The Guardian, 20 years ago, would have run a story about someone being arrested for refusing to give their name to the police when asked - in fact I doubt that the story even today made it into the print edition of the paper.
I have no doubt that since William Henry Fox Talbot's day, the police have regularly been asking photographers what they are doing taking photos in public places and on occasions asking for their name and address. In the past however, the majority of people weren't prepared to question those in authority, and so the matter would have been resolved simply and without any fuss just as it was for the person who took the video - 'Patefield was arrested for refusing to give his details, while his friend, who gave in, walked free.'
Bottom line - are these incidents on the increase or are being made increasingly aware of them?
Steve
Greytop wrote:
. . .the bottom line is there is an apparent erosion of your rights taking place in the UK.
. . .the bottom line is there is an apparent erosion of your rights taking place in the UK.
I think that you have hit the nail on the head. In my opinion the reason why it appears that our rights are being eroded is that today we have access to infinitely more 'news' than was ever possible in the past. Things that previously would not have been considered newsworthy in even a local newspaper can now be viewed globally on the website of an (allegedly) quality daily newspaper at the click of a button. I can't imagine that The Guardian, 20 years ago, would have run a story about someone being arrested for refusing to give their name to the police when asked - in fact I doubt that the story even today made it into the print edition of the paper.
I have no doubt that since William Henry Fox Talbot's day, the police have regularly been asking photographers what they are doing taking photos in public places and on occasions asking for their name and address. In the past however, the majority of people weren't prepared to question those in authority, and so the matter would have been resolved simply and without any fuss just as it was for the person who took the video - 'Patefield was arrested for refusing to give his details, while his friend, who gave in, walked free.'
Bottom line - are these incidents on the increase or are being made increasingly aware of them?
Steve
Actually I would normally use something stronger than appears in conversation but I've probably said enough already
Giving your details OK provided if it stops there, but it's what happens to your personal information afterwards that worries me.
Regards Huw
flickr
Link
Posted 23/02/2010 - 13:36
Pentaxophile wrote:
Well, that's a terrible shame and, with respect, an over reaction to these stories. Architecture and street shots comprise 60% of my photography. I've only been approached once (i was in a side street by a police station). A brief explanation of what I was doing was sufficient and we parted amicably. I'm sure encounters like this are the majority, if not newsworthy.
Well, that's a terrible shame and, with respect, an over reaction to these stories. Architecture and street shots comprise 60% of my photography. I've only been approached once (i was in a side street by a police station). A brief explanation of what I was doing was sufficient and we parted amicably. I'm sure encounters like this are the majority, if not newsworthy.
Link
Posted 23/02/2010 - 13:39
Pentaxophile wrote:
Well, that's a terrible shame and, with respect, an over reaction to these stories. Architecture and street shots comprise 60% of my photography. I've only been approached once (i was in a side street by a police station). A brief explanation of what I was doing was sufficient and we parted amicably. I'm sure encounters like this are the majority, if not newsworthy.
Greytop wrote:
Put it another way would anyone feel comfortable with the idea of taking your kit into your nearest town centre and taking a few candid shots and some architecture?
EDIT: I know I wouldn't
Put it another way would anyone feel comfortable with the idea of taking your kit into your nearest town centre and taking a few candid shots and some architecture?
EDIT: I know I wouldn't
Well, that's a terrible shame and, with respect, an over reaction to these stories. Architecture and street shots comprise 60% of my photography. I've only been approached once (i was in a side street by a police station). A brief explanation of what I was doing was sufficient and we parted amicably. I'm sure encounters like this are the majority, if not newsworthy.
A shame yes I agree, an over reaction well maybe but given our local town centre I'm not so sure
Regards Huw
flickr
Link
Posted 23/02/2010 - 13:52
And I think greytop has a point, some places may seem less welcoming. That said I walk just about anywhere with the camera and have yet to be challenged and I dare say that's good luck and looking vaguely respectable.
Dare one ask which town centre is intimidating? More so the Hyson Green in Nottingham
Mike
---------------------------------------------------
You can see some of my shots at my Flickr account.
Dare one ask which town centre is intimidating? More so the Hyson Green in Nottingham
Mike
---------------------------------------------------
You can see some of my shots at my Flickr account.
Link
Posted 23/02/2010 - 15:49
The only places I have had my collar felt were in the countryside photographing underground nuclear missile silos ('Go away Mr MOD policeman I am on a public road') and in Soho at night for causing an obstruction on the footpath, well there were four of us with a very large camera and tripod ('its a fair cop, guv').
You can photograph anywhere if you ask politely. Technoidiot, I have no worries about photographing in cities day or night or Orange Walks just ask people if you can take their picture. People will even ask you to take their's - I've never been sure why, they wont get a copy!
As I said in an earlier post the guy should have co-operated with the cops, who were presumably acting on a complaint - remember Amin's tale? and the situation wouldn't have escalated. You cannot think that you can refuse a simple request and not arouse suspicion.
The majority of people carry photographic ID - a driving license, I think this is being blown out of all proportion.
Should I enter and win the next comp. I'll set the subject for the following one as 'Me being arrested for taking a photograph', there shouldn't be any shortage of entries.
Ken
“We must avoid however, snapping away, shooting quickly and without thought, overloading ourselves with unnecessary images that clutter our memory and diminish the clarity of the whole.” - Henri Cartier-Bresson -
You can photograph anywhere if you ask politely. Technoidiot, I have no worries about photographing in cities day or night or Orange Walks just ask people if you can take their picture. People will even ask you to take their's - I've never been sure why, they wont get a copy!
As I said in an earlier post the guy should have co-operated with the cops, who were presumably acting on a complaint - remember Amin's tale? and the situation wouldn't have escalated. You cannot think that you can refuse a simple request and not arouse suspicion.
The majority of people carry photographic ID - a driving license, I think this is being blown out of all proportion.
Should I enter and win the next comp. I'll set the subject for the following one as 'Me being arrested for taking a photograph', there shouldn't be any shortage of entries.
Ken
“We must avoid however, snapping away, shooting quickly and without thought, overloading ourselves with unnecessary images that clutter our memory and diminish the clarity of the whole.” - Henri Cartier-Bresson -
Last Edited by gartmore on 23/02/2010 - 15:52
Link
Posted 23/02/2010 - 17:09
i do agree that he should have given his name and address i would have no problem with that as a law abiding citizen...apart from the terrible crime of TAKING PHOTOGRAPH'S
but do get fed up with these trumped up job's worth people who have been given a uniform and get power crazy.....
regards
Roy
Pentax K3 gripped,and some lenses
https://www.flickr.com/photos/pentaxroy/
my pbase gallery
but do get fed up with these trumped up job's worth people who have been given a uniform and get power crazy.....
regards
Roy
Pentax K3 gripped,and some lenses
https://www.flickr.com/photos/pentaxroy/
my pbase gallery
Link
Posted 23/02/2010 - 17:42
Quote:
As far as I could see they were abiding by the law
As far as I could see they were abiding by the law
doesn't seem to matter
regards
Roy
Pentax K3 gripped,and some lenses
https://www.flickr.com/photos/pentaxroy/
my pbase gallery
Link
Posted 23/02/2010 - 17:54
Even if the PCSO`s were acting on a complaint it was surely enough to establish that that the guy was legitimately going about with his Camera. There was nothing more to be gained and they should have walked away satisfied with that!
If the practice of stopping people from taking Photo`s is allowed to continue unchallenged then it will become accepted as the norm. Then where would it lead to?
Regards Pete
If the practice of stopping people from taking Photo`s is allowed to continue unchallenged then it will become accepted as the norm. Then where would it lead to?
Regards Pete
Add a Comment
You must be registered or logged-in to comment.
techno-terminator
Member
Glasgow
... It may be true that the police are becoming more officious, however we have a very long way to go before we get close to the kinds of policing that much of the world 'enjoy'...
Good point well made.
Not that I agree with the actions of the PCSOs in these incidents but it's always worth remembering things could be a lot worse.
A sense of perspective is good I agree BUT what the bottom line is there is an apparent erosion of your rights taking place in the UK. In particular it seems that photographers (and I suspect individuals with camcorders) are being singled out as 'suspicious' potential wrong doers.
Put it another way would anyone feel comfortable with the idea of taking your kit into your nearest town centre and taking a few candid shots and some architecture?
EDIT: I know I wouldn't
I'll do it during the day - and have done . But I'm not sure I'd take a tripod with me - that could arouse interest. I'm happy to walk round with my K-x - my bag is clearly a camera bag . Having said that , and Gartmore will understand , there's no way I would take any pics during an Orange Walk .
I'm not going to be stopped taking pics - if I'm challenged by the Police they can have my ID - I've nothing to hide. BUT if they are over zealous I'll not be pleased - I expect to be treated with courtesy .
OTH - I can't see anyone thinking that an overweight female OAP is a terrorist threat
let the education continue
proud owner of a couple of cameras and a few bits and bobs