Another case of Police Overstepping the mark


Greytop

Link Posted 23/02/2010 - 10:44
johnriley wrote:
Does anyone think that all of this could have been avoided if the photographer had voluntarily given his details, even though he didn't have to?

And what happens to your details if you voluntarily give them? Do the police check them and then simply rip up the contact report? Or do they get logged and entered on a database of potential 'antisocial' individuals or worse?
Regards Huw

flickr

Father Ted

Link Posted 23/02/2010 - 10:58
Whilst I agree in principle with John.
Greytop has a valid point. What if you keep getting stopped for this "anti-social behaviour"?
Would you finally reach a tipping point after 3 or 4 times, where the police might feel you are a "repeat offender" and try to take it further? Regardless of whether there is anything in law to allow them to take it further, you still get all the hassle.

If you are doing nothing wrong then you have nothing to hide?
Sorry, but:
If you are doing nothing wrong then you don't need to account for your actions.

(IMHO )
Getting there! Thanks to you guys

Pentax K10d, *istDL, Kit lens ( 18-55mm ), 50mm f1.7 lens, Tamron 70-300mm lens, Prinzflex 70-162 manual lens, Various old flashes.
Last Edited by Father Ted on 23/02/2010 - 10:59

Anvh

Link Posted 23/02/2010 - 11:00
technoidiot wrote:
Our class challenge this week was set by one of the students - night time photos in the City Centre !!

This is the girl who is using a P&S camera for a lot of her work [ gets good photos too ]

Now she will be OK using a P&S - not as obvious - but the thought of taking a DSLR camera out late at night does astound me to do this sort of work. Even our Tutor looked a bit shocked and promptly added to it saying that no-one was to be on their own for this and they were to take great care . He then produced 2 alternative challenges .

The scenario of someone standing in the City Centre , late at night taking photos of people is truly mind boggling . It's inviting the police to have a discussion with you - and I can imagine the sort of outcome

By the sound of that it looks like the police are terrorist, putting fear into photographers... can't we arrest them?
Stefan


K10D, K5
DA* 16-50, DA* 50-135, D-FA 100 Macro, DA 40 Ltd, DA 18-55
AF-540FGZ

thoughton

Link Posted 23/02/2010 - 11:04
Greytop wrote:
johnriley wrote:
Does anyone think that all of this could have been avoided if the photographer had voluntarily given his details, even though he didn't have to?

And what happens to your details if you voluntarily give them? Do the police check them and then simply rip up the contact report? Or do they get logged and entered on a database of potential 'antisocial' individuals or worse?

The male PO briefly discussed this in the video. There will be a record that you were stopped and questioned. Presumably this is slightly better than a record that you were stopped and arrested for 8 hours
Tim
AF - Pentax K5, Sigma 10-20/4-5.6, Tamron 17-50/2.8, Sigma 30/1.4, Sigma 70-200/2.8, Tamron 70-300/4-5.6
MF - Vivitar CF 28/2.8, Tamron AD2 90/2.5, MTO 1000/11
Stuff - Metz 58 AF1, Cactus v4, Nikon SB24, Raynox 150, Sigma 1.4x TC, Sigma 2x TC, Kenko 2x macro TC, Redsnapper 283 tripod, iMac 27, Macbook Pro 17, iPad, iPhone 3G
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Last Edited by thoughton on 23/02/2010 - 11:04

Argee

Link Posted 23/02/2010 - 11:15
thoughton wrote:
It makes my blood boil when I see footage like this - policemen and women who are clearly too stupid to be in that profession.

[Rant on]

It makes MY blood boil when I see cretins like these referred to as "policemen and women," when they are not.

The PCSO scheme has been an abject failure since it began. Its only purpose was to fool the public into thinking that there were more officers on the streets, because "real" officers were increasingly being tied down by bureaucracy and paperwork. PCSO's extremely limited powers and lip-service training have ensured that they are derided by the very element of the public they were supposed to deter. Their cost (albeit subsidised) prevents the recruitment of more regular officers and in my local area the Police Authority are shedding 78 police officers due to budgetary constraints. These will include long-serving, very experienced officers, cast aside in favour of these uniformed coathangers.

Their inexperience and ineptitude actually causes more work for regular officers, who have to attend and clear up the mess they have got thenselves into - then their staff union (Unite) defends them to the hilt - amazing! Some people seem to accept the "cannon-fodder" principle, that increased numbers of police look-alikes can't be a bad thing. Examples such as these prove that if you think training is expensive, count the cost of not doing it properly.

It truly makes me sick that regular officers are being tarred with the PCSO brush. I accept that not all regulars are the sharpest knives in the drawer, but - in my on-the-job experience - PCSOs take the levels of competence sub-terrainian. [Rant over!]

Ray
Z1, K10D, D-BG2 Grip, DA 1:3.5-5.6 18-55mm AL, DA 1:3.5-6.3 18-250mm ED AL(IF), AF540FGZ Flash, FA 1:1.7 50mm, DA 1:2.4 70mm Limited, Wireless Remote (Did I offend you? Click here).

Greytop

Link Posted 23/02/2010 - 11:19
thoughton wrote:
Greytop wrote:
And what happens to your details if you voluntarily give them? Do the police check them and then simply rip up the contact report? Or do they get logged and entered on a database of potential 'antisocial' individuals or worse?

The male PO briefly discussed this in the video. There will be a record that you were stopped and questioned. Presumably this is slightly better than a record that you were stopped and arrested for 8 hours

In which case this begs the next question, if a record is kept on a database (and we all know how much the UK management like databases) how is it tagged? How is it managed?
Think about it, your name is on a Home Office database possibly labelled as a trouble maker, how might that be used in the future?

I don't think I'd want to give my details in this situation.
Regards Huw

flickr
Last Edited by Greytop on 23/02/2010 - 11:25

Pentaxophile

Link Posted 23/02/2010 - 11:21
I'm tired of this sort of thing. No the police shouldn't be so suspicious of photographers, but to refuse to provide details just makes the situation more serious and in doing so you risk arrest. Would you refuse to give your details if you had a car accident? 'If you are doing no wrong then you shouldn't have to account for your actions' - well unless you have been able to explain why you are taking pictures to the officer's satisfaction - and that comes down to both the officer's common sense and YOUR attitude in dealing with him - how is he to know whether you are doing wrong or not? Give your details, and if you think you have been wronged, write to the police authority.
[link=https://500px.com/will_brealey/[/link]

bretti_kivi

Link Posted 23/02/2010 - 11:42
by this logic; why are there no ID cards in the UK?

Car accident is slightly different: there is incontrovertible evidence that something has happened and it should be obvious who was involved.
Committing the crime of photography is another story. I do not see any reason, in a country which does not demand me to carry ID, to identify myself to anyone on purely "suspicion" grounds.

Bret
my pics: link
my kit: K3, K5, K-01, DA 18-55, D-FA50 macro, Siggy 30/1.4, 100-300/f4, 70-200/2.8, Samsung 12-24/f4, Tamron 17-50, and lots of other bits.

promhandicam

Link Posted 23/02/2010 - 11:45
I'm just thankful that I'm now living in a country where something as civilised as this exchange can play out. It may be true that the police are becoming more officious, however we have a very long way to go before we get close to the kinds of policing that much of the world 'enjoy'. Having been arrested myself for filming - from the comfort of my own verandah - by several armed policeman one of whom, when I started questioning what was happening, cocked his submachine gun and pointed it at me before bundling me into an unmarked (no number plates) car and driving me away. I know where I'd rather get stopped! I don't suppose many reading this will be planning holidays this year to Kinshasa, but it is worth remembering that even some countries that are well known tourist destinations have considerably less liberal views on what people can or can't do. Ending up on a home office database will be the least of your worries.

promhandicam

Link Posted 23/02/2010 - 11:47
bretti_kivi wrote:
by this logic; why are there no ID cards in the UK?

A question asked by most non UK citizens when they find out to their astonishment that the UK doesn't have any form of ID cards.

hefty1

Link Posted 23/02/2010 - 11:49
promhandicam wrote:
... It may be true that the police are becoming more officious, however we have a very long way to go before we get close to the kinds of policing that much of the world 'enjoy'...

Good point well made.

Not that I agree with the actions of the PCSOs in these incidents but it's always worth remembering things could be a lot worse.
Joining the Q

Anvh

Link Posted 23/02/2010 - 11:55
bretti_kivi wrote:
by this logic; why are there no ID cards in the UK?

Car accident is slightly different: there is incontrovertible evidence that something has happened and it should be obvious who was involved.
Committing the crime of photography is another story. I do not see any reason, in a country which does not demand me to carry ID, to identify myself to anyone on purely "suspicion" grounds.

Bret

We must carry an ID but that does not give the Police the right to just ask for it, certainly if they halt you because you're taking photographs where you're allowed to do that.
Stefan


K10D, K5
DA* 16-50, DA* 50-135, D-FA 100 Macro, DA 40 Ltd, DA 18-55
AF-540FGZ

Greytop

Link Posted 23/02/2010 - 11:59
hefty1 wrote:
promhandicam wrote:
... It may be true that the police are becoming more officious, however we have a very long way to go before we get close to the kinds of policing that much of the world 'enjoy'...

Good point well made.

Not that I agree with the actions of the PCSOs in these incidents but it's always worth remembering things could be a lot worse.

A sense of perspective is good I agree BUT what the bottom line is there is an apparent erosion of your rights taking place in the UK. In particular it seems that photographers (and I suspect individuals with camcorders) are being singled out as 'suspicious' potential wrong doers.

Put it another way would anyone feel comfortable with the idea of taking your kit into your nearest town centre and taking a few candid shots and some architecture?

EDIT: I know I wouldn't
Regards Huw

flickr
Last Edited by Greytop on 23/02/2010 - 12:02

Anvh

Link Posted 23/02/2010 - 12:00
hefty1 wrote:
promhandicam wrote:
... It may be true that the police are becoming more officious, however we have a very long way to go before we get close to the kinds of policing that much of the world 'enjoy'...

Good point well made.

Not that I agree with the actions of the PCSOs in these incidents but it's always worth remembering things could be a lot worse.

Well name those countries, most if not non of them are in the EU...
Stefan


K10D, K5
DA* 16-50, DA* 50-135, D-FA 100 Macro, DA 40 Ltd, DA 18-55
AF-540FGZ

thoughton

Link Posted 23/02/2010 - 12:18
Greytop wrote:
thoughton wrote:
Quote:
And what happens to your details if you voluntarily give them? Do the police check them and then simply rip up the contact report? Or do they get logged and entered on a database of potential 'antisocial' individuals or worse?

The male PO briefly discussed this in the video. There will be a record that you were stopped and questioned. Presumably this is slightly better than a record that you were stopped and arrested for 8 hours

In which case this begs the next question, if a record is kept on a database (and we all know how much the UK management like databases) how is it tagged? How is it managed?
Think about it, your name is on a Home Office database possibly labelled as a trouble maker, how might that be used in the future?

I don't think I'd want to give my details in this situation.

I imagine the records will all be kept on a laptop and left behind on a train one day
Tim
AF - Pentax K5, Sigma 10-20/4-5.6, Tamron 17-50/2.8, Sigma 30/1.4, Sigma 70-200/2.8, Tamron 70-300/4-5.6
MF - Vivitar CF 28/2.8, Tamron AD2 90/2.5, MTO 1000/11
Stuff - Metz 58 AF1, Cactus v4, Nikon SB24, Raynox 150, Sigma 1.4x TC, Sigma 2x TC, Kenko 2x macro TC, Redsnapper 283 tripod, iMac 27, Macbook Pro 17, iPad, iPhone 3G
Flickr Fluidr PPG Street Portfolio site
Feel free to edit any of my posted photos! If I post a photo for critique, I want brutal honesty. If you don't like it, please say so and tell me why!
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