22nd-23rd Aug - Shoreham Airshow anyone?


Gwyn

Link Posted 22/08/2015 - 14:35
News coming in of a crash at Shoreham. I hope everyone is safe, pilot, those on the ground and Pentax Users.

Gwyn

Link Posted 22/08/2015 - 16:10
Now reading it hit several cars on the A27. What a terrible thing.

DrOrloff

Link Posted 22/08/2015 - 17:09
Horrific. I was planning to drive to watch the show in the afternoon so would have passed the crash site, which was at traffic lights on the A27. I took the bus instead, missed a connection and arrived just after the accident. There is an extraordinary image on the Brighton Argus website of the precise moment the plane hit the road.
You can see some of my photos here if you are so inclined

jeallen01

Link Posted 22/08/2015 - 18:46
Was, and still am at the show - unlikely to get out for a couple more hours.
Had just stood up to photo the Hunter coming in from the North when he just got too low, went below the trees & exploded, leaving a trail of fire & thick smoke for about 200-300m. Took about an hour for the smoke & flames to go/be put out.

IMHO show probably won't happen tomorrow - too much shock and confusion everywhere.
K-3 II, K-3 and a K-70 from SRS (having now relegated the K-30 /"K-50" to a backup body) , & some Sigma and Pentax lenses (and a lot of old 35mm gear!)
Last Edited by jeallen01 on 22/08/2015 - 18:47

DrOrloff

Link Posted 22/08/2015 - 18:53
Difficult to see how the show will go ahead when so many people who had nothing to do with the show are dead or injured. Wouldn't seem right,
You can see some of my photos here if you are so inclined

Gwyn

Link Posted 23/08/2015 - 10:02
jeallen01 wrote:
Was, and still am at the show - unlikely to get out for a couple more hours.
Had just stood up to photo the Hunter coming in from the North when he just got too low, went below the trees & exploded, leaving a trail of fire & thick smoke for about 200-300m. Took about an hour for the smoke & flames to go/be put out.

IMHO show probably won't happen tomorrow - too much shock and confusion everywhere.

I hope you made it home eventually, and are recovering from the shock of it all.

jeallen01

Link Posted 23/08/2015 - 12:49
Gwyn wrote:
[quote:3496ace15f="jeallen01"]Was, and still am at the show - unlikely to get out for a couple more hours.
Had just stood up to photo the Hunter coming in from the North when he just got too low, went below the trees & exploded, leaving a trail of fire & thick smoke for about 200-300m. Took about an hour for the smoke & flames to go/be put out.

I hope you made it home eventually, and are recovering from the shock of it all.

I think we finally got off the site at around 8pm, via the Emergency Exit (across the runway and then down a dirt track) onto the A27 West bound (about 200-300m West of where the Hunter impacted the road & cars), and then home at around 10.30pm (with a brief comfort & snacks stop). Neither of us went to bed until midnight or later because it takes time to wind down after a day like that.

Vaguely similar thing happened at Duxford Flying Legends in 2013 when a Skyraider took the tail off Rod Dean's Mustang at about 300-400ft - but Rod bailed out PDQ and was OK, and the accident happened on the far side of the airfield and the Mustang went down in a field well away from anybody.

Coincidently Rod was the Flying Director at Shoreham yesterday, and (knowing just a little of his history in the aviation business) I doubt he would have sanctioned any manoeuvres that had a remote chance of ending like this one did. So I'm suspecting a combination of pilot error (too low and slow into the loop, and possibly too far North along the flight line - if the latter had not happened then the accident would probably happened on the airfield itself) and mechanical failure (flame out because no jet noise was reported on the way down to the impact?).

Somewhat doubt that the pilot blacked out because he (we hope still) is an ex-RAF instructor with a fast jet history, and the Hunter was not really known for very high G turns.
K-3 II, K-3 and a K-70 from SRS (having now relegated the K-30 /"K-50" to a backup body) , & some Sigma and Pentax lenses (and a lot of old 35mm gear!)

Gwyn

Link Posted 23/08/2015 - 13:26
I can imagine sleep was difficult last night.

Now I am reading of another airshow crash in Switzerland two German grasshoppers collided, one pilot killed teh other ejected safely. One plane crashed into a barn, in the main street of the village, missing all the houses thank heavens.
So many crashes at shows lately.

jeallen01

Link Posted 23/08/2015 - 15:38
The risks from airshow performances are relatively well known after the many years (over a 100 years so far) they have been taking place, and lessons are learnt every time things like these happen and arrangements are (generally) made to improve them.

This is the same approach that the aircrash investigators take with civil airliners (watch "Aircrash Investigation" on the satellite channels for many examples) and there are actually very many fewer people killed or injured in both fields of aviation than there were in 50's 60's and 70's, even though there are more planes, they have got faster and more people attend such events/fly in civil airliners than did then.

I think one of the real problems with Shoreham is not the flying but with the location and very limited number of routes to enter/leave the site: 1 pedestrian bridge from the East, and 2 road access points but only one of those is open for the general public access, and is the one where the Hunter crashed. That effectively meant HUGE queues to get it (we were queuing on the A27 Westbound approach for over an hour and there were masses of cars behind us, and also meant that with that access completely devastated then virtually everybody on the airfield was trapped for 6-8 hours (there were many vehicles still behind us when we got out).

Therefore, had a similar crash happened a couple of hours before, the aircraft would have ploughed into the middle of dozens of virtually stationary vehicles and hundreds of people.

That was an organisation cockup/oversight or call it what you will.

It is also hugely worrying that if the crash had happened just inside the airfield, but near/on that public access road, then hundreds of people would have been killed/injured and the Emergency Services would only have had very limited and difficult access to the site. As it was, the 200-300m long fireball, and most of the debris, was spread in an open area beyond the trees to the North East of the airfield - and thus not thrown anywhere near the public parking and viewing areas - and the Emergency Services could access the impact site from the A27 itself, and to a very limited extent from inside the airfield site via the restricted access entrance, which has a very low bridge, on the South side.

Maybe next year's show (if there is one) should only be via pre-booked tickets (like Duxford's September BoB Anniversary Show will be) so that the numbers can be realistically controlled (which they were not yesterday)?
K-3 II, K-3 and a K-70 from SRS (having now relegated the K-30 /"K-50" to a backup body) , & some Sigma and Pentax lenses (and a lot of old 35mm gear!)
Last Edited by jeallen01 on 23/08/2015 - 15:41

actech12

Link Posted 23/08/2015 - 16:38
jeallen01 wrote:
The risks from airshow performances are relatively well known after the many years (over a 100 years so far) they have been taking place, and lessons are learnt every time things like these happen and arrangements are (generally) made to improve them.

This is the same approach that the aircrash investigators take with civil airliners (watch "Aircrash Investigation" on the satellite channels for many examples) and there are actually very many fewer people killed or injured in both fields of aviation than there were in 50's 60's and 70's, even though there are more planes, they have got faster and more people attend such events/fly in civil airliners than did then.

I think one of the real problems with Shoreham is not the flying but with the location and very limited number of routes to enter/leave the site: 1 pedestrian bridge from the East, and 2 road access points but only one of those is open for the general public access, and is the one where the Hunter crashed. That effectively meant HUGE queues to get it (we were queuing on the A27 Westbound approach for over an hour and there were masses of cars behind us, and also meant that with that access completely devastated then virtually everybody on the airfield was trapped for 6-8 hours (there were many vehicles still behind us when we got out).

Therefore, had a similar crash happened a couple of hours before, the aircraft would have ploughed into the middle of dozens of virtually stationary vehicles and hundreds of people.

That was an organisation cockup/oversight or call it what you will.

It is also hugely worrying that if the crash had happened just inside the airfield, but near/on that public access road, then hundreds of people would have been killed/injured and the Emergency Services would only have had very limited and difficult access to the site. As it was, the 200-300m long fireball, and most of the debris, was spread in an open area beyond the trees to the North East of the airfield - and thus not thrown anywhere near the public parking and viewing areas - and the Emergency Services could access the impact site from the A27 itself, and to a very limited extent from inside the airfield site via the restricted access entrance, which has a very low bridge, on the South side.

Maybe next year's show (if there is one) should only be via pre-booked tickets (like Duxford's September BoB Anniversary Show will be) so that the numbers can be realistically controlled (which they were not yesterday)?

My thoughts are with those that have lost loved ones or are waiting to find out. The services were exemplary while I was there. The only thing I can think of that could have been improved was the 'evacuation' plan. There are in fact two pedestrian exit points (which were both eventually opened once possible), but there are also two road exits, the main to the north where the accident took place and the service road to the south west corner under a low bridge which restricts access to cars and small vans, which is usually open to the public but for corporate ticket holders only during the airshow. A lot of distressed people could have exited in their cars using this route far earlier and reduced the pressure on the organisers etc., all that would have been needed was one organiser's rep and a PC just to ask them if they had any useful video or photographic evidence on the way out. While this was not a pleasant experience for those directly or indirectly involved, my personal belief is that you cannot legislate and make everything in life 100% risk free otherwise we have no life. I do hope that sense prevails and it is seen for what it is - a very tragic accident. The latest news as I write this is that the pilot is fighting for his life. My thoughts are with him and hopefully he will recover and overcome any guilt he is almost certainly going to feel.

Dave
Always blame the equipment!!!!
Last Edited by actech12 on 23/08/2015 - 16:42

johnriley

Link Posted 23/08/2015 - 17:00
A dreadful turn of events for all concerned and I've been thinking of the tragic knock on effect for so many families, especially those where people have lost their lives. But also, it must have been very traumatic for those trapped on the airfield, especially the youngsters.
Best regards, John

ilovesaabs

Link Posted 23/08/2015 - 17:03
I am back home, but I was at Goring last night....

I was at the north end of the crowd - having been dismayed how many people were there - viewing was difficult with all the seats.

I parked at the south entrance, and in spite of the announcements people were able to leave from around 3pm from that exit, but the A259 was solid through to Lancing and beyond. I did look out for other Pentax users before the tragic events unfolded.

Won't comment on the organisation, I don't think even the best planning in the world would cope perfectly with such an incident but I will sympathise for the victims and families of those caught up on the A27 - the first things people around me were saying that they hoped the plane missed the road.

First things I do is format my cards without downloading all the images, just saving one or two of the aircraft itself.
AKA Welshwizard/PWynneJ
Assorted Pentax/Nikon/Mamiya stuff

actech12

Link Posted 23/08/2015 - 17:04
"Coincidently Rod was the Flying Director at Shoreham yesterday, and (knowing just a little of his history in the aviation business) I doubt he would have sanctioned any manoeuvres that had a remote chance of ending like this one did. So I'm suspecting a combination of pilot error (too low and slow into the loop, and possibly too far North along the flight line - if the latter had not happened then the accident would probably happened on the airfield itself) and mechanical failure (flame out because no jet noise was reported on the way down to the impact?). "

Hi John,
I don't recall hearing it once over the top of the loop either but bear in mind the Hunter is a very quiet jet. My photo shows a good jet efflux shortly before. One thing Hunters are prone to is stalling if put in too tight a turn (angle of attack increases too much and destroys the lift over the wing). What I thought I saw was an increase in pitch attitude (realisation of being too low to complete the loop so pulling back on the stick more) thus stalling the aircraft and hitting the ground. I stress this is only my opinion, I'm sure there are plenty others and from a closer viewpoint.

Dave
Always blame the equipment!!!!

jeallen01

Link Posted 23/08/2015 - 17:15
[i]
actech12 wrote:


My thoughts are with those that have lost loved ones or are waiting to find out. The services were exemplary while I was there. The only thing I can think of that could have been improved was the 'evacuation' plan. There are in fact two pedestrian exit points (which were both eventually opened once possible), but there are also two road exits, the main to the north where the accident took place and the service road to the south west corner under a low bridge which restricts access to cars and small vans, which is usually open to the public but for corporate ticket holders only during the airshow. A lot of distressed people could have exited in their cars using this route far earlier and reduced the pressure on the organisers etc., all that would have been needed was one organiser's rep and a PC just to ask them if they had any useful video or photographic evidence on the way out. While this was not a pleasant experience for those directly or indirectly involved, my personal belief is that you cannot legislate and make everything in life 100% risk free otherwise we have no life. I do hope that sense prevails and it is seen for what it is - a very tragic accident. The latest news as I write this is that the pilot is fighting for his life. My thoughts are with him and hopefully he will recover and overcome any guilt he is almost certainly going to feel.

Dave

Dave

Was not sure about the 2nd pedestrian bridge, so didn't mention it - but the organisers could also have opened the Emergency Exit track to the A27 much earlier than they did - the only reason I can think for that not happening is that they kept it clear for Emergency vehicles coming in from the West, but I am pretty sure that they did not have to wait until around 6-7pm before they did open it (the coaches appeared to get out much earlier - around 4pm IIRC.

Sorry if I sound somewhat "dispassionate" about those killed and injured (and, of course, their many relatives and friends) - my wife has already said this to me! - but, having been a safety engineer in the defence and other industries for many years before I retired, I tend to take a rather analytical approach to accident prevention and to identifying the causes of accidents so as to try to prevent them happening again (or even better, before they ever happen at all). Thus I don't think the risks and possible risk reduction and control issues were sufficiently thoroughly thought through before this tragic event.
K-3 II, K-3 and a K-70 from SRS (having now relegated the K-30 /"K-50" to a backup body) , & some Sigma and Pentax lenses (and a lot of old 35mm gear!)
Last Edited by jeallen01 on 23/08/2015 - 17:25

jeallen01

Link Posted 23/08/2015 - 17:25
actech12 wrote:

Hi John,
...One thing Hunters are prone to is stalling if put in too tight a turn (angle of attack increases too much and destroys the lift over the wing). What I thought I saw was an increase in pitch attitude (realisation of being too low to complete the loop so pulling back on the stick more) thus stalling the aircraft and hitting the ground. I stress this is only my opinion, I'm sure there are plenty others and from a closer viewpoint.

Dave

That sounds very plausible, nevertheless.
K-3 II, K-3 and a K-70 from SRS (having now relegated the K-30 /"K-50" to a backup body) , & some Sigma and Pentax lenses (and a lot of old 35mm gear!)
Add a Comment
You must be registered or logged-in to comment.